(no subject)

[dikayasobaka]

Раскрываем тему дальше.

Роберт Фиск написал интересную статью про политкорректность в исполнении влиятельных еврейских групп на Западе. В принципе, вариант примерно тот же, что и в любом ином исполнении - но масштабы довольно внушительные.

Вот она, с моими комментариями:
The erosion of free speech (англ.)

Comments

[dikayasobaka.livejournal.com]

Есть одна тактика, применяемая Цахалом, которую я однозначно не поддерживаю: разрушение домов пойманых террористов. Все остальное из того, что ты перечислила, может быть оправдано тактическими обстоятельствами.

И да, формально это не война. Посему не мешало бы, чтобы боевкики ХАМАСа и прочих прекратили взрывать автобусы, кафе, дискотеки и т.д. Я не отрицаю их права на войну с силовыми структурами - но атаковать сугубо гражданские объекты есть натуральное блядство.

А спор, полагаю, о том, насколько ISM является сугубо гражданской структурой.

[-s-a-v-v-a-.livejournal.com]

Back to my latin keyboard and lame English.

Well, don't take me wrong - I do not support terrorism! And I do agree that "атаковать сугубо гражданские объекты есть натуральное блядство" from both sides of the conflict. I am only taking about peace process and the way ISM approaches it. As far as I know ISM and people working for it, it is a non-violent peace making organization, nominated for Noble Peace Prize. If I miss something in the organization's activity, I would be very much interested to know about it.

[ygam.livejournal.com]

Have you ever read short story "Or Else" by Henry Kuttner? Here is a Russian translation. It is about a non-violent peace-making alien.

[-s-a-v-v-a-.livejournal.com]

Funny! :)
Yope, non-violent peace demonstrations only provide temporary relief, if any. But where do you see a solution to such conflicts?

[ygam.livejournal.com]

Victory by one side, and vae victis to the other side.

How do you think the Russian Civil War or the American Civil War or the Second World War would have ended if aliens descended and tried to alleviate the humanitarian catastrophe on the losing side?

[-s-a-v-v-a-.livejournal.com]

Eh... is it arguing for the sake of argument? :) I do not believe ever mentioning in my comments that the beauty would safe the world or non-violent demonstration is our only hope. Read my comments more carefully, pls. I do, however, applaud people who are willing to risk their lives to protect civilians during armed conflicts or wars.
But back to your scenario, which, for the record, i support. What, in your point of view, is the definition of the victory in such situation?

[ygam.livejournal.com]

Regarding the Israeli-Arab conflict, please read this Etgar Keret story in Russian translation: one translation, another translation. I can't say anything else.

[-s-a-v-v-a-.livejournal.com]

I don't see how it is the answer to my question about the victory... But thank you, it is a good story.
As to "I can't say anything else." Well, it is quite upsetting actually. In every conflict one should hear from both sides. Because there are also stories like this, for instance. Let's not picture the situation as black and white one.

[dikayasobaka.livejournal.com]

There are many stories in there, of course.

What I find unacceptable in Israel's actions is that Palestinians were never given equal rights within whatever borders Israel drew for itself. What I find unacceptable in the actions of the other side is, obviously, terrorism and (on the part of some groups) calls for extermination of Israel and Jews which pretty much meant to say that peace was not on their agenda.

[-s-a-v-v-a-.livejournal.com]

What was that?.. e.. ППКС!

[dikayasobaka.livejournal.com]

Гав!!!

[gera.livejournal.com]

What I find unacceptable in Israel's actions is that Palestinians were never given equal rights within whatever borders Israel drew for itself.

What borders and what rights could you possibly be talking about?

Nice source

[gera.livejournal.com]

As activists often say with regards to Israel, “remove your boot from their throat, and you may find that the Palestinians are very reasonable people.” (http://www.habiba.org/palestine.html#Anchor-Realities)

This is a complete and utter bullshit as 13 years of disillusionment have proven. Israel has "taken its boot from their throat" 10-13 years ago, placing about 95% of them under a complete control of Palestinian Authority.
What nice and reasonable people they turned out to be! As an immediate result of this so called peace process they started blowing themselves up in Israeli buses and their official school curricula included extolling terrorists, encouraging children to follow their footsteps and teaching them that Israel has no right to exist.

Re: Nice source

[dikayasobaka.livejournal.com]

It is true that starting with the Oslo Accords a large majority of Palestinians ended up under PA. But it was still Israel in control of the roads, border checkpoints, water and many other resources. Let's also not forget about places like Hebron where the Arab population has always been subjected to curfews for the benefit of the tiny Jewish minority.

But that's not the main thing here. The peace process failed, once again. But let us look at what Israel is really doing (I mean the ruling elite)? Do they really desire harmony and peace? I am not so sure anymore. They wouldn't draw borders, most of the time, and when they do they create conditions of ethnic inequality within those borders. Israeli Arab citizens still don't have equal rights. Is there a better pretext for conflict?

PS

[gera.livejournal.com]

Just in case it is not completely clear, I am not talking about Hamas not recognizing Israel's right to exist, I am talking about this doctrine being pushed into children's heads by schools, official TV and newspapers in Arafat's PA from the onset of so called peace process and as a direct result of it.

[phobos-il.livejournal.com]

Бред. Прикажут вообще не реагировать - отойти на 10 метров подальше и все. В крайнем случае какой-нибудь офицер пальнет в воздух сам.
Камень до сих пор не считается угрозой для жизни. Огонь на поражение боевыми патронами мог бы быть открыт в случае, если бы за детьми прятались террористы с оружием или если помимо камней в солдат также летели коктейли Молотова.

[dikayasobaka.livejournal.com]

Это так по правилам. Я легко могу себе представить и ситуацию, в которой у мужика сдали нервы и он на правила решил забить.

[ygam.livejournal.com]

Мне этот рассказ показался неправдоподобным, и я дал ссылку на него в сообществе meast_ru. Можете почитать комментарии.

[-s-a-v-v-a-.livejournal.com]

Рассказ, который привели Вы в подтверждение своей позиции, является литературным произведением. Тем ни мение, Вы можете строить на его основании свою политическую позицию и "can't say anything else".
Тем ни менее, спасибо, что разместили ссылку. I believe the issue is serious enough to publicise it. Hopefully more people would get interested to hear from the other side of the conflict. It seems only logical to me to do so in order to take any political or emotional stand.

[dikayasobaka.livejournal.com]

Well, there are many ways to support civilians, in time of war or otherwise. Stopping an army performing an operation whose objective may not even be clear to you is not necessarily one of them. Also note that the ISM'ers are not known to ride Israeli buses in an attempt to serve as a human shield for Israeli civilians.

[-s-a-v-v-a-.livejournal.com]

They are not known for protecting terrorists either. I don't understand why is it such a questionable humanitarian efford, when a citizen of a different country dies protecting some children on the streets?
Boris, I am really having hard time understanding what exactly you are trying to say. That helping people in need is bad and useless? Or that ISM is a right hand of HAMAS?

[dikayasobaka.livejournal.com]

I really don't know what happened there. It is pretty clear that the soldier who shot Hurndall did so intentionally; whether it was a case of mistaken identity or he wanted to kill him specifically, or as a member of ISM with which the IDF soldiers could very well have been frustrated - I don't know. Yes, this could be a war crime, likely is. A routine war crime that most armies commit during most wars.

Now, if you read the same story again you are gonna' notice that the ISM was planning to set up a tent that would block Israeli armor from traveling a certain road. Don't you think that sort of thing is - in a direct military sense - quite advantageous to the other side?

And no, ISM is not "right hand of HAMAS"; but that doesn't mean that what ISM does could not be of immediate use to HAMAS - in the military, not ideological sense.

[-s-a-v-v-a-.livejournal.com]

A hellicopter that brings a first aid container to a village in a jungle to help injured wives and children of some rebels can be of military use, since it indicates the disposition of the village. But its humanitarian mission cannot be denied.

An environmental organization that is holding an action at Baikal to attract public attention to the construction of the pipe can be blamed for air pollution, because the activist came to the action site by bus.

Well, I am not saying it's not true. But com'on! The trees. The forest. A?

Being a real woman I feel like I need to have the last word, of course :)

[ygam.livejournal.com]

Формально большинство войн - не войны. Гражданскую война в России, например, никто не объявлял.